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	<title>Comments on: ABA Formal Op. 08-451 Good News for US-based Independent Contract Lawyers and Hiring Attorneys</title>
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		<title>By: Christopher B.</title>
		<link>http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-101165</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:36:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/#comment-101165</guid>
		<description>The essential problem with outsourcing is the shift of liability.  If the lawyer or firm were to be sued for ineffective assistance of counsel there will be cross claims galore.  The cost of defending such claims would have an impact on the true cost effectiveness of sending this work out.  In the end the value costing would eliminate any savings to the clients.  And, let&#039;s be completely frank here, this type of outsourcing would only help the big firms with their bloated legal business; it does nothing for the small and mid-size firms.  

An alternative would be to give the consumer a choice of outsourcing for lower costs or having American-trained attorneys working for them.  The disclosure would have to be the good, the bad, and the ugly to be fair (none of this half disclosure we have seen in the financial world).  

I am not a fan of outsourcing. That being said, outsourcing is a good thing when it allows more people to afford a bit of &quot;justice.&quot; One of the big problems with outsourcing legal work is that the law is a people business. We interact with our clients; they gain trust in us; and they see that we are indeed working on their case. Clients want to know they are winning or being protected more than they want to know you save them 15% on their car insurance (joke). When their legal work is happening overseas, the client gets none of that, except the discount. Is there value in it, sure. If we took the time to explain completely the nature of legal services to each client I believe most would opt for American representation. If the client knows you understand their case completely and that you take an interest in their welfare, they would likely forego the cost reduction.

What we need to work on is BigLaw costs, or making more lawyers with exceptional ability cost available. I am a proponent of smaller firms with lower overhead and great lawyers. The salary of a good lawyer doesn&#039;t change, the overhead does. If we look at salary vs. cost, we can see that an attorney who bills $250 an hour and can bill 2000 hours they have grossed $500k. If we are big spenders and take out 50% overhead, we still make out at $250k. And $250 an hour is lower than what BigLaw bills out first years. You could bill higher and see bigger numbers (you just have to know the &quot;sweet spot&quot;). I won&#039;t even go into the quality of life you get back.

The problem is not having to send more jobs overseas, it is we need to take bake our legal system from big law firms that charge too much for too little too often.  I now there are great attorneys who work at big firms, but that is more the exception than the rule.  These big firms look for big clients and the people needing justice the most (those under the $100k a year job) go without.  The system has been highjacked and it is ransomed to only those with deep pockets. 

Sending legal work overseas will only make big  firms more profitable because they will not likely pass this cost savings along to their clients.  Our industry will take a hit on its nobility and put even more attorneys out of work, no matter how you spin it.

This whole idea sounds like a Madoff ponzi scheme idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The essential problem with outsourcing is the shift of liability.  If the lawyer or firm were to be sued for ineffective assistance of counsel there will be cross claims galore.  The cost of defending such claims would have an impact on the true cost effectiveness of sending this work out.  In the end the value costing would eliminate any savings to the clients.  And, let&#8217;s be completely frank here, this type of outsourcing would only help the big firms with their bloated legal business; it does nothing for the small and mid-size firms.  </p>
<p>An alternative would be to give the consumer a choice of outsourcing for lower costs or having American-trained attorneys working for them.  The disclosure would have to be the good, the bad, and the ugly to be fair (none of this half disclosure we have seen in the financial world).  </p>
<p>I am not a fan of outsourcing. That being said, outsourcing is a good thing when it allows more people to afford a bit of &#8220;justice.&#8221; One of the big problems with outsourcing legal work is that the law is a people business. We interact with our clients; they gain trust in us; and they see that we are indeed working on their case. Clients want to know they are winning or being protected more than they want to know you save them 15% on their car insurance (joke). When their legal work is happening overseas, the client gets none of that, except the discount. Is there value in it, sure. If we took the time to explain completely the nature of legal services to each client I believe most would opt for American representation. If the client knows you understand their case completely and that you take an interest in their welfare, they would likely forego the cost reduction.</p>
<p>What we need to work on is BigLaw costs, or making more lawyers with exceptional ability cost available. I am a proponent of smaller firms with lower overhead and great lawyers. The salary of a good lawyer doesn&#8217;t change, the overhead does. If we look at salary vs. cost, we can see that an attorney who bills $250 an hour and can bill 2000 hours they have grossed $500k. If we are big spenders and take out 50% overhead, we still make out at $250k. And $250 an hour is lower than what BigLaw bills out first years. You could bill higher and see bigger numbers (you just have to know the &#8220;sweet spot&#8221;). I won&#8217;t even go into the quality of life you get back.</p>
<p>The problem is not having to send more jobs overseas, it is we need to take bake our legal system from big law firms that charge too much for too little too often.  I now there are great attorneys who work at big firms, but that is more the exception than the rule.  These big firms look for big clients and the people needing justice the most (those under the $100k a year job) go without.  The system has been highjacked and it is ransomed to only those with deep pockets. </p>
<p>Sending legal work overseas will only make big  firms more profitable because they will not likely pass this cost savings along to their clients.  Our industry will take a hit on its nobility and put even more attorneys out of work, no matter how you spin it.</p>
<p>This whole idea sounds like a Madoff ponzi scheme idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Independent US Contract Lawyer Takes On Foreign LPO &#124;  Freelance Law Firm </title>
		<link>http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-101158</link>
		<dc:creator>Independent US Contract Lawyer Takes On Foreign LPO &#124;  Freelance Law Firm </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/#comment-101158</guid>
		<description>[...] taken a fair amount of heat for pointing out that ABA Formal Op. 08-451, which states (with some important caveats) that foreign legal outsourcing is... because the same principles that allow firms to send legal work overseas also allow law students [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] taken a fair amount of heat for pointing out that ABA Formal Op. 08-451, which states (with some important caveats) that foreign legal outsourcing is&#8230; because the same principles that allow firms to send legal work overseas also allow law students [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pro Information Center &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why a Bad Economy is Good News for US-Based Independent Contract Lawyers</title>
		<link>http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-18377</link>
		<dc:creator>Pro Information Center &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Why a Bad Economy is Good News for US-Based Independent Contract Lawyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/#comment-18377</guid>
		<description>[...] As I noted back in August, independent US-based contract lawyers generally provide unique, individualized services to small firms and solo practitioners, and this work is less subject to commoditization than the document review work for corporations or large firms that forms the majority of legal work that is shipped abroad. Nevertheless, small firms and sole practitioners are no doubt facing at least as much pressure to trim their fees as large firms are experiencing; in fact, the individuals and small companies that comprise the client base of many small firms are likely even more cost-sensitive than the big companies that are represented by BigLaw. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As I noted back in August, independent US-based contract lawyers generally provide unique, individualized services to small firms and solo practitioners, and this work is less subject to commoditization than the document review work for corporations or large firms that forms the majority of legal work that is shipped abroad. Nevertheless, small firms and sole practitioners are no doubt facing at least as much pressure to trim their fees as large firms are experiencing; in fact, the individuals and small companies that comprise the client base of many small firms are likely even more cost-sensitive than the big companies that are represented by BigLaw. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Significance of Carlson v. Xerox for Independent US-Based Contract Lawyers &#124; legalresearchandwritingpro.com</title>
		<link>http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-17159</link>
		<dc:creator>The Significance of Carlson v. Xerox for Independent US-Based Contract Lawyers &#124; legalresearchandwritingpro.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 05:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/#comment-17159</guid>
		<description>[...] court squarely rejected this argument, citing (among other authorities) ABA Formal Op. 08-451  for the proposition that an attorney may bill a contract lawyer&#8217;s charges to the client as [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] court squarely rejected this argument, citing (among other authorities) ABA Formal Op. 08-451  for the proposition that an attorney may bill a contract lawyer&#8217;s charges to the client as [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Why a Bad Economy is Good News for US-Based Independent Contract Lawyers &#124; Legal Research &#38; Writing Pro Blog</title>
		<link>http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-3149</link>
		<dc:creator>Why a Bad Economy is Good News for US-Based Independent Contract Lawyers &#124; Legal Research &#38; Writing Pro Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/#comment-3149</guid>
		<description>[...] As I noted back in August, independent US-based contract lawyers generally provide unique, individualized services to small firms and solo practitioners, and this work is less subject to commoditization than the document review work for corporations or large firms that forms the majority of legal work that is shipped abroad. Nevertheless, small firms and sole practitioners are no doubt facing at least as much pressure to trim their fees as large firms are experiencing; in fact, the individuals and small companies that comprise the client base of many small firms are likely even more cost-sensitive than the big companies that are represented by BigLaw. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As I noted back in August, independent US-based contract lawyers generally provide unique, individualized services to small firms and solo practitioners, and this work is less subject to commoditization than the document review work for corporations or large firms that forms the majority of legal work that is shipped abroad. Nevertheless, small firms and sole practitioners are no doubt facing at least as much pressure to trim their fees as large firms are experiencing; in fact, the individuals and small companies that comprise the client base of many small firms are likely even more cost-sensitive than the big companies that are represented by BigLaw. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Recent URLs tagged Staffing - Urlrecorder</title>
		<link>http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-3146</link>
		<dc:creator>Recent URLs tagged Staffing - Urlrecorder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/#comment-3146</guid>
		<description>[...] Recent public urls tagged &quot;staffing&quot;  &#8594; ABA Formal Op. 08-451 Good News for US-based Independent Contract... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Recent public urls tagged &#8220;staffing&#8221;  &rarr; ABA Formal Op. 08-451 Good News for US-based Independent Contract&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Economic Downturn and Solo/Small Firm Culture &#171; Lawyer On! The Contract Attorney&#8217;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-3141</link>
		<dc:creator>The Economic Downturn and Solo/Small Firm Culture &#171; Lawyer On! The Contract Attorney&#8217;s Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/#comment-3141</guid>
		<description>[...] ways in which attorneys are adapting is by cutting costs, outsourcing overflow work, and downsizing to solo practices.  If the current economic trends continue, I believe we will see [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ways in which attorneys are adapting is by cutting costs, outsourcing overflow work, and downsizing to solo practices.  If the current economic trends continue, I believe we will see [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Home Office Warrior &#187; Home Office Tips and Hints &#8212; The Links</title>
		<link>http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-3050</link>
		<dc:creator>Home Office Warrior &#187; Home Office Tips and Hints &#8212; The Links</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/#comment-3050</guid>
		<description>[...] @lisasolomon &#8212; Good news for US-based independent contract lawyers and hiring attorneys. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] @lisasolomon &#8212; Good news for US-based independent contract lawyers and hiring attorneys. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Wiest</title>
		<link>http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/comment-page-1/#comment-3047</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Wiest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalresearchandwritingpro.com/blog/2008/08/28/aba-formal-op-08-451-good-news-for-us-based-independent-contract-lawyers/#comment-3047</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve done contract work where the client paid a low markup.  I&#039;ve done de facto contract work where the client paid a high markup (supporting &quot;overhead&quot; at a time when my former full-time employer was continuing to provide me with desk space and benefits).  I&#039;ve done contract work where the client paid the full (agreed-to) fee.  Whether I work (or will work) on any of these terms, of course, is my choice, depending on the facts and circumstances.

I _don&#039;t_ like seeing the billing of contract attorney fees as a disbursement proposed as a means of setting an ethically &quot;reasonable&quot; total fee.  Even if a subjective definition of &quot;reasonable&quot; short of unconscionability is appropriate, an argument that contract attorney&#039;s fees _must_ be treated as disbursements and the only additional permissible fee is for supervisory services flows from the suggestion that a disbursement-based approach is ethically proper.

You&#039;re right to say that the significant supervisory burden ABA would impose on buyers of foreign outsourced legal services can only help US contract attorneys.  I just wonder if the observation that fees for the supervision of contract attorneys whose own fees are to be treated as disbursements is permissible can be used as a wedge to either drive down US contract lawyer fees or make the use of low-cost offshore services to be supervised by high-priced US attorneys more attractive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve done contract work where the client paid a low markup.  I&#8217;ve done de facto contract work where the client paid a high markup (supporting &#8220;overhead&#8221; at a time when my former full-time employer was continuing to provide me with desk space and benefits).  I&#8217;ve done contract work where the client paid the full (agreed-to) fee.  Whether I work (or will work) on any of these terms, of course, is my choice, depending on the facts and circumstances.</p>
<p>I _don&#8217;t_ like seeing the billing of contract attorney fees as a disbursement proposed as a means of setting an ethically &#8220;reasonable&#8221; total fee.  Even if a subjective definition of &#8220;reasonable&#8221; short of unconscionability is appropriate, an argument that contract attorney&#8217;s fees _must_ be treated as disbursements and the only additional permissible fee is for supervisory services flows from the suggestion that a disbursement-based approach is ethically proper.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right to say that the significant supervisory burden ABA would impose on buyers of foreign outsourced legal services can only help US contract attorneys.  I just wonder if the observation that fees for the supervision of contract attorneys whose own fees are to be treated as disbursements is permissible can be used as a wedge to either drive down US contract lawyer fees or make the use of low-cost offshore services to be supervised by high-priced US attorneys more attractive.</p>
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